Episode 6: The 5 Questions Every Small Biz Is Asking About Paid Ads
Show Notes:
In this episode, I welcome Emma Huschka to The Table. Emma’s a paid traffic strategist, creative data nerd, and the guiding force behind Fiddle Leaf Marketing. Emma’s known for cutting straight through the confusion and helping small businesses finally see actual results from their ad spend, using simple language. If you’ve ever wondered whether paid ads are worth it for your business, she’s the pro you want in your corner, Fiddle Leaf Marketing and today she's here with some answers.
Listen if you’re:
Tired of burning cash on “let’s just try it” ad strategies
Craving less jargon, more clarity on paid ads
Need real, right-now answers for streamlining ad spend
Key Takeaways:
Diagnose if now is the time: Step-by-step prompts to figure out if the foundation is set (and what to tighten first if not).
“Don’t outspend the funnel”: Dani and Emma break down starter budgets vs. scaling sensibly—what the gurus never say.
Read results like a pro: Emma’s “red flag” data moments (plus, the one number most folks hype that actually means zip).
About Emma:
Emma Huschka is a paid traffic strategist with a knack for translating analytics into simple, human moves for business owners. She’s built campaigns that actually help small brands punch above their weight, and specializes in helping service pros turn digital ads into real, consistent results—without the overwhelm or useless guru-speak.
Questions Covered & Timestamps:
03:42 - When is it the right time to start using paid ads?
09:17 - Should ads always be running — or just sometimes?
15:21 - Is it better to run ads to a paid offer or something free?
22:44 - What type of creative works best right now?
34:59 - How much do I really need to spend for ads to work?
40:16 - How do I know if I’m getting a good ROI from my ads?
44:38 - What are some big changes that have/are happening in the paid space that people should know?
Next Step:
If you’re curious about starting paid digital ads or looking for a better way to leverage them, book a free consult with Emma at Fiddle Leaf Marketing
Links:
Emma Huschka, Fiddle Leaf Marketing
On the Blog: Paid Ads 101: 3 Truths Every Small Business Needs to Hear
Want the dish on her dish?
Drop me a DM on @MiseenPlan and we'll be happy to share her recipe for her amazing spinach dip!
See you next time, I’ll save you a seat!
Transcript:
Dani: Okay, well, as a strategic advisor, I get asked a lot of questions. I also ask a lot of questions, and I feel like over the last few weeks in particular, I have had a lot of people with very deep, thoughtful questions all about paid media and advertising, especially when it comes to paid search and social.
Dani: And today, I'm hoping that we can answer a few of those big questions and get you all feeling more confident to explore how paid ads might actually fit into your strategy to grow your business, or help you realize that maybe now is not actually the right time. So welcome to the table. If you're new here, I'm Dani Hedenberger, your host and the founder of Mison Plan, and as a strategic marketing advisor, I help businesses big and small, reposition their offers, rethink their strategy, and find clarity when that usual menu of marketing tactics just isn't cutting it anymore. And as a small business owner, I'm also on the same team as you, just trying to figure it all out. And over the years, I have had the privilege of collecting some of the most amazing bunch of experts in their field, and I actually even started this podcast to be able to bring them to you and let them answer your, well, our big questions and get you the support that you need.
Dani: So today, I am so excited to introduce you to someone who has become such a dear friend and small biz confidant to me over the last year, Emma!
Dani: Emma Huschka is the founder and CEO of Fiddle Leaf Marketing, a boutique agency helping small businesses grow through paid social, paid search, and smart digital strategy, and she is passionate about partnering with women-owned businesses and brands of any industry, and is all about bringing a transparent and results-driven approach to every single person that she works with.
Dani: When she's not leading her team, Emma is a mom of two very adorable little ones, and very proud Purdue grad. So, Emma, welcome to the table!
Emma: Thank you so much for having me. What an intro, first of all, so impressive, but thank you, I'm so excited to be here. It's been so much fun getting to know you over the last few months, and excited to chat.
Dani: No, it's always so much fun when we get in a room together, even though we've never actually been in a room together. It feels like...
Emma: Sorry.
Dani: We know each other so well, in fact, just before this, we were having lots of good shows that we probably should have recorded, because it's small biz life, right?
Emma: I'm sure we'll have.
Dani: I know, I'm sure those landscapers are gonna come right on by any minute. Well, okay, so we are on completely opposite coasts of the U.S. right now, but before we get into ads and all the many questions that I'm going to ask you, and I cannot get the answers for.
Dani: I want to set the table a little bit, literally. So if this were her dinner party, which is my vision for this whole podcast as a whole, what's the dish that you would want to bring?
Emma: Oh, my goodness, what a good question, and just like you said, I'm a big question asker, so... it depends how many people are there. Like, hypothetically, in this dinner party, like, how many people are we talking, like, estimate?
Dani: Let's say there's, like, 5 or 6 of us.
Emma: Okay, okay.
Dani: The girls hanging out with some wine, what's on.
Emma: I love it. I have a spinach dip that is... It's like a warm spinach dip. It's five ingredients. I'm all about simplicity. Like you said, I'm a mom of two littles, so if I'm gonna do anything, it's gotta be... it's gotta be, simple and quick. And this delicious five-ingredient spinach dip. I do some, like, Hawaiian bread, alongside it, and it just...
Dani: That's true.
Emma: It's so good. Like I said, it's warm with the Hawaiian, kind of, like, sweet Hawaiian bread. It's fantastic, and it's a really good, kind of, for that size group. Even some leftovers, depending on, you know, what else is there. But yeah, I think I'd go with a spinach dip.
Dani: Oh, that sounds so good.
Emma: You're like, no.
Dani: Recipe from you, please? Because I have a spinach artichoke dip that I love to make, but I always do it with, like, tortilla chips, so I've never done it with warm potato bread, and who doesn't love some good, warm potato bread?
Dani: Well, you're welcome to come to my dinner party anytime.
Emma: It's actually a vetting process.
Dani: Yeah, this is actually what this is. That's the whole purpose of this, is to find out who I'm willing to invite.
Emma: You're like, no, thank you, actually. We... you will have to pass.
Dani: Yeah, you just, you can't... you can't eat everyone's food. But not my friends. They're all great and have the best food, so I'm excited. One day, I'm gonna make it happen.
Emma: Yes.
Dani: Alright, well, as I mentioned, I've been getting so many questions recently about paid ads and what people need to be thinking about, and I've gotten a couple of questions that I know I've had some answers to myself, but I thought, wait a minute, why don't I bring in someone who is actually a pro and is actually under the hood more often than I certainly am with whether it's search, or what have you.
Dani: And I would love to get some… some thoughts from you on what your answers would be, and hopefully the people that have been asking you these questions are listening in. And so, well, we all have the answers now.
Dani: So the first one, and I know you and I have touched on this before together, which is, you know, when is it the right time to start doing paid ads? I think there are so many businesses that are in the state of growth. Some people start the minute that they launch their business, some people have been in business for 10 years and are going on 7 or even 8 figures and haven't even touched paid ads before, so…
Dani: Aside from time, what is the right time, in giant quotation marks for those of you that are listening, not watching, to start using paid ads?
Emma: Yeah, it's such a good question, and I love your quotes on time, because you're spot on. It's like, you know, unfortunately, just like anything with marketing, there is no perfect science or perfect answer. But, you know, some things that I definitely, even from an agency perspective, that I proactively will reach out to brands that I'm like, you kind of check these, you know, internal boxes that I have that I think you'd be a good fit for paid, so, like, that's kind of where I want to start with this question.
Emma: You know, what that foundation looks like for paid ads of what we like to see when, you know, either a brand comes to us, or we're going to proactively reach out because we think it'd be a good opportunity.
Emma: And I'd say, you know, some of the things that we look for is, like, how is your messaging? Which, you know, again, we've talked about, because that's obviously your expertise and where you thrive, of, like, you know, do you know how you're presenting your service, your offer, your product, and how you're communicating that, and who your audience is. Like, those are, you know, I think very foundational pieces that you want to make sure you have down, because paid ads is really fantastic of magnifying whatever is existing, and if you don't have that messaging down, you know, hey, we can get whatever messaging is there in front of a lot of qualified customers, but if you don't… if you aren't able to convince someone of why you, your product or service matters, paid ads, unfortunately, aren't gonna make that, you know, make that possible if your business, your website, isn't already doing that. So, I'd say that's a big one.
Emma: Another one that I think is a good kind of, you know, am I ready checkbox is, you know, how are you doing organically? And like you said, there's businesses that have grown for 7, 10, you know, if not longer years, and have never touched paid ads, and they've just been able to do really well and maintain a growth and maintain a business off of organic, and that's a really good sign if you've been able to do that well and grow, I'd say, really, at all, organically is a positive sign, because right there, that means you have a message that's resonating, because you're doing something organically.
Emma: So, you know, not that it takes that many years, you know, I think if you… and that's where it's tough, just like you said, to say whether or not right out the gate it makes sense, or, you know, to give it some time. There's no perfect formula, but, you know, you feel good, and that you have a consistent message that can convert customers.
Emma: In that you've been able to do something organically. And again, unfortunately, I can't quantify that something, but that you've seen some sort of traction.
Emma: And, you know, I think lastly, which I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about the investment financially, but that you… you do gotta have funds to put behind paid ads, period. It's paid. So, a critical portion of that. It does take an investment, and I think it's important to look at it as an investment, and, so whether or not you're going to hire a professional or kind of try to do it yourself, it still takes dollars, and you have to, you know, have something to put into that. So I would say, you know, the messaging, some sort of organic traction, and, money, you know, some sort of investment.
Dani: I know this was on my list as well for much later on, but I'm gonna bring it in now, which is the burning question that I think most people have, which is.
Dani: How much do I really need to spend in order for paid ads to work?
Emma: Yeah, no, that is… that is the question, and I get this, you know, every… probably every single client, potential customer I talk to. And, again, no perfect science. In some of the, like, statements, I think that are fact, pretty much, are, like, the more you put in, typically, the more you get out. You know, these are multi-billion dollar companies, you know, Meta, Google being two of the largest, so typically the more money you put into them, the more you're going to get in front of, you know, more customers, the more data you're going to get. These paid advertising platforms are completely off of machine learning and data, so the more you spend, the more data you get. The quicker you get that data, typically, the better the results, because they can learn faster.
Emma: So there's, you know, again, kind of just some truths that have to be stated. But, the biggest thing I talk to especially small businesses about is you have to start somewhere. You can't get to, you know, that growth or that scaling stage, which is our, you know, pride and joy, and when we get to a client, we just posted a case study this week of, like, a client that we started working with, and now we're scaling, because we were able to, you know, show a proof of concept of, like, ads work, and now we continue to increase budget, because the results are there for that client, and the more you spend, again, typically, the more you make. So, all that to say, you know, kind of my best practice, and these numbers are arbitrary, because there is no… we don't have a magic ball that's like, if you spend this, you get this. That would be fantastic. I wouldn't be doing this. I'd just be creating e-commerce businesses. But, you know, if I had to say a number, I'd say $1,000 a month on ad spend on, you know, Meta, or on Google, or, you know, ideally both.
Emma: is what is, you know, kind of the magic number to start. You know, there's some agencies that won't work with clients unless they're spending that, because it is kind of a little threshold that, you know, kind of looked at across the industry.
Emma: And then my recommendation is, if you're going to invest in paid advertising, that at least kind of the minimum I'd recommend is $500 a month. So that $500 to $1,000 is starting point. The closer to $1,000, the better. And of course, if you have the funds to, you know, invest more than that, or, you know, start there, and then see what you get, and then push further.
Emma: Is what I recommend if, you know, again, kind of throwing out numbers.
Dani: Yeah, that makes sense. It's one of those… things, right? That's a little bit… gambly, where, you know, you just kind of have to put some money, I gotta spend money to make money, and that's, I think, one of the hardest Pills to swallow when you're starting a business, is where that investment goes, and then whether or not Debt is bringing back tangible return.
Danielle Henneberger: Given, obviously, they're really hard-earned dollars, especially harder dollars the earlier you are in your business, but even if you're in 7, 8 figures, it's still hard-earned money. So how do you think about ROI, and how to know whether or not your ads are getting you.
Dani: the right amount of ROI.
Emma: Yeah, and... It's such a, such a big question, and it's, for each, each customer, each week, each quarter's different, you know, and depending on what their goals are, but just like you said, and why I love what I do is, like, I understand all of that, especially now as a business owner. You know, I've been in the industry working with small businesses for, you know, almost 8 years, and so I've worked a lot of small businesses that I, just like you said, I know how important every dollar is, and how you know you've got to stretch it, you've got to see a return to continue to invest, just like any investment. If you're not seeing a return on your investment, it is a risk, it's a gamble. There's other places you could put that. If you don't see that return, you're not going to keep doing it. That's just, you know, that's the way it works.
Emma: But, as far as, you know, what's… what is a, you know, what's worth it, or what's, you know, a good return on your investment, return on your ad spend. Is such a good question, and I think that, is a lot where we start with our clients, of that conversation of, like, you know, a lot of our clients, when we ask, like, what are your return on ad spend goals? No idea. They've never done it before. How would they… they don't know. They want to make money, but they have, you know, the intricacies of what goes into that is just… pretty convoluted, and even the data around that, there's all these sources of truth that are gonna tell you one thing versus something else, so…
Emma: You know, we kind of walk clients through that in the beginning, and we really dive into, like, their profit margins, you know, for their services or their products, to help them kind of reverse engineer what's a positive return on ad spend for you at this point in your business, which might look different day one versus, you know, 90 days in, you know, versus maybe, 6 to 12 months. And, so what that comes down to is, like, it's… there's so much that goes into that return of, you know, if you're looking at it strictly from the ad spend perspective, it's gonna look probably pretty dang good. Once you start to take into the expense of providing that product or service, you obviously then are looking more at your margins, and then how it's impacting your bottom line, and...
Emma: You know, some clients don't realize, you know, when you decide to do paid ads, all of that needs to be part of the conversation, because yes, if the top of the, you know, your revenue is increasing, that's fantastic, but if you're producing more, providing more services, then your expenses are also going to increase. So, you know, there's this big conversation of profit that... You know, some agencies will just say, like, this is your return on ad spend, look how glorious it is, and it's like, there's so much more that goes into that, and whether or not it's positive for a business or not.
Emma: And we don't shy away from those conversations. It's so important, because if, you know, you could have a 20X return on that spend in a platform, that if you're spending a couple hundred dollars, that's not as impressive as if you're spending a few thousand dollars, and you have a 4X return. You know, it's,
Emma: There's just so much more that... that goes into that. So I don't think that probably answers your question, just because it is so complicated. But, you know, is your... and again, I think it just comes down to the bottom line, like, are you making more money? Are you making more profit than it's probably successful? But not to just judge it based off of that return on ad spend, because it's... there's just so many things, additional pieces that go into that to make it that simple.
Dani: Yeah, that's a really great point, and I think that... I know I've worked with some clients whose customer acquisition costs average in the $300 plus, right? Because it's much more high-ticket item, take a little longer to warm them up, spend a lot more to follow them around the internet, whereas others might be able to do it for a couple of dollars.
Dani: And it just really is a... depends on who you are, and what you need, and what you're going for, and the life cycle of your... of your business. So that's a really great point. And you did say something really interesting about how sometimes it matters, like, what month it is. Like, where... what time of year it is, and all of that, and so...
Dani: I'm curious, does... should ads... and this is a question I get a lot, which is, should ads always be on? Or does it make more sense to strategically turn them on, turn them off, depending on when you know you're gonna get a better ROI?
Emma: Absolutely, and such a good question, again, one that I get often, too, and I would say, like, a straight answer is yes should always be an always-on approach, period. I am an advertiser, so I am going to be biased towards that answer. But, to follow that up of the data and why, and it comes back to data, you know, like I already mentioned a few times, you know, these, these are... these... businesses use machine learning to optimize and to be efficient to get you the best results. It takes data. And they use positive reinforcement. So if you, you know, you want to get someone to buy your product, you want to get someone to book your service.
Emma: The more that those things happen, the more positive reinforcement goes back to these platforms, the more they know how to do their job of finding those people. So the more data is always going to be better.
Emma: Period. So, if you're stopping ads... for example, in Q1, very common for people to think that after Q4, you know, whatever, you know, seasonality, obviously different with businesses, but especially in e-commerce, Q4 is, like, the time... there's advertisers, I was just talking to clients earlier today. The competition right now, and through the rest of the year is going to be the highest that it will be all year, because there's advertisers that don't advertise all year that come into this space right now, or especially increasing budgets.
Emma: And again, what we really recommend to our clients and anyone that, is considering paid ads, is even if you pull back budget significantly, you know, in your off-seasons, the stopping, turning off campaigns, you... you basically reset all of the learning that you had. You don't lose it, there's still data, you know, that exists out there, but you are turning it off. You have a valve, and you're shutting it off, versus... Keeping it on, you know, ramping it up during, yeah, your push seasons, and then pulling back maybe during your slow seasons.
Emma: is you're still keeping that learning going, rather than, again, once you most of these campaigns, Google and Meta, once you turn them off, pause them, you reset that learning, and it absolutely impacts performance. So even if you have what we refer to, like, an evergreen approach, and have something to even help with brand awareness, you know, whatever it may be, maybe branded campaigns on search.
Emma: Kind of pull back to, like, your minimum, to keep them always on, even at a minimum, you know, the bare minimum you can handle from ad spend is better than stopping, for a lot of reasons, but a lot is data. And the other argument I talk to my clients about, too, is since so many advertisers are defaulting to stopping during those times, that's exactly when you want to be advertising… when you want to be advertising. It's cheaper.
Emma: And your competitors then are maybe not in the space, so of course then you want to be, because if they're thinking, you know, I need this, or I, you know, I'm looking for this.
Emma: you want to… you want to be the one that's getting in front of them, and if you also go dark, then, like, you know, they're not going to find you, you know, or maybe your competitor, but so yeah, there's… there's a variety of reasons, but ideally, your always-on is… is recommended, for sure.
Emma: That is really fair. You know, I never...
Dani: like, I understood that, but I never really thought about it as being a part of consistently feeding the algorithm, and I think it's a lot of, like, what's behind being consistent on organic social, is that the algorithm forgets.
Emma: how you fit into it, and then it doesn't know how to...
Dani: get you out there anymore. I say this as if I'm very regular and consistent posting on social media, but we're gonna pretend like I am.
Emma: Oh, you've known...
Dani: Those of us...
Emma: That's how the algorithms work. It's, it's, you have to play the game for it to reward you, and that's… it is, it's the same, absolutely.
Dani: Yeah, no, that… that makes a lot of sense. And then, I know that...
Dani: similarly to different times of year being big times of year for just the market in general, there are also sometimes big times of year where it's big for you. And I know that some of my clients, for example, are going through launches, or are trying to build their email list, and or are trying to...
Dani: put on a big sale, or are trying to actually sell something. And so, when it comes to running ads.
Dani: Do you find that paid ads are more effective for positioning something as, like, a freebie, or a free offer, versus, like, a paid offer, or a low-cost offer. So I guess, can you talk a little bit about where, like, paid fits and the strategy for each of those, and, like, filling the top of funnel versus, you know, throughout the funnel. I know it's a really big answer. Yeah, no, it's like, okay, like, a little bit.
Emma: No, that was, they're all really awesome questions. So, as far as, like, a paid offer versus a free offer is… is such a good question and a fantastic test, is, like, it just so depends on so many, you know, what the offer is, what the business is, and how much, you know, data maybe you have, if you have any, of, like, how well does your free, you know, offer do to convert? You know, how often, if we get you these free...
Emma: you know, X, like us, we have our free strategy call, and it's like, you know, once we get them on the phone, we feel pretty good about our conversion rate. We, you know, we're... we're good at selling, you know, and that's ultimately what it is. So it's… if your freebie, you know, whatever kind of you're… you're, want to be able to offer to get someone's foot in the door, which is a fantastic sales tactic,
Emma: to show the value at, you know, a low cost, obviously, probably to the business, then, you know, it's worth testing. Absolutely, yes. But I… I am definitely… we're hesitant to ever… recommend our clients offer something for free, unless, of course, they, you know, it's their idea, they… they wouldn't do that. Or if we're really struggling, you know, whatever their price point, especially if they're new, to kind of the proof of concept to get people to spend X amount on whatever. Because it's, again, ultimately, especially if you're offering… willing to give something away for free, you know, that's such a personal to the business of whether or not that makes sense. So it's, you know, there's just a lot, again, that goes into that, but I think testing is what we always are going to default to, like, let's give it a try, let's see.
Emma: And then, as far as the funnel, you know, just like you said, there's… when you're prospecting, when you're, you know, trying to get in front of potential new customers.
Emma: you know, a lot of that is getting their foot in the door. Like, whatever, that's a conversation, that's, a trial, that's a… you know, sample product, a discount to buy your product, to at least fall in love with it, and then, you know, especially customers maybe that tell… or clients that say they have a high lifetime value, so they're, you know, once people come the first time, they're just, you know...
Dani: Coming back.
Emma: A lot of loyalty. It's like, perfect, we just need to get them to try it that first time, and then it might lead to conversations like, oh, have you considered a 10% off your first purchase? Because clearly, you have no issues getting them to stay loyal and come back. We just need a really good, you know, campaign to have them keep you top of mind, so that way, when they do fall in love, a competitor doesn't turn their heads, you know, and swoop in. So kind of keep them in that funnel, and of course, email marketing really helps with that, paid ads support it.
Emma: So yeah, I think, you know, in nurturing that funnel, you know, getting them kind of the… I'm not a Fisher woman, but, like, hook and sinker, you know, you really gotta hook them with that, kind of top of funnel, and then continue to work them down the funnel, either by, offers, you know, kind of additional incentive. We do that through, like, reviews, case studies, you know, ways that you can, you know, it's like, okay, now you're interested. If that didn't do it, here's more information, and then promo we do a little bit lower in the funnel, just because, again, we don't always recommend discounting your product the first time someone discovers you, and then they're maybe gonna expect that. So…Anyways, that was a lot, but there's all sorts of ways, you know, depending on the business, the offer, that we can kind of tie that up, work customers down the funnel in a way that will get them to convert and ideally continue converting.
Dani: No, that makes a lot of sense, and to your point, it, like, really depends on the business and what your offer actually is, because the higher price point to your offer, the harder it is to just, like, cold sell something, right? So how do you warm them up along the way and get them in the door, so you can really start pitching them via email, versus if you're selling.
Emma: Do what we're gonna…
Dani: just making up something. Like, if you're selling deodorant, like, that's a little bit less of a cognitive load to want to purchase, and therefore, you know, this is where strategy comes in, and really understanding who you're selling to and what you're doing, and so, like, that's what matters, and sometimes it also comes down to, like, the type of creative you're doing, and so I'm so curious, because I feel like creative is one of those things that has… is polar opposite today than it was 5 years ago, let alone 10 years ago, let alone, oh my god, go back and, like, watch Mad Men, and, like, that worked back then, and then that works now.
Dani: So, when it comes to the type of creative that works for paid ads, whether search or social or whichever lens you want to cover this, what works best right now? Like, what are the big trends that you're seeing on that front?
Emma: Yeah, I love… I mean, this is… creative is king, is kind of, like, the phrase in the industry right now, content is king, creative is king, and it's been like that, you know, especially with, again, machine learning here over the last couple of years, few years, just like you said, so different, than… I think it's, you know, I think it's easier, but at the same time, a lot harder than, you know, of course, I wasn't marketing back, like you said, in the Mad Men days, but, I almost wish, like, we have so much data now that I think, you know, it gets a little convoluted, but it does, you know, really come down to creative anymore, especially on, on meta, you know.
Emma: search, there's elements. YouTube's been huge. Small plug for YouTube. YouTube's, like, depending on what list you look at, like, second or first, use, widely used social media app, you know, technically a Google product, so it's under the search umbrella, but it's, just becoming more and more popular, YouTube Shorts specifically. And, you know, the type of content that resonates on these different platforms varies slightly, but, what it really comes down to, what's working really well and has, you know, at least for the last few years, is user-generated content, or anything that remotely resembles that. So, you know, real people. People are resonating the most right now with real people, and whether or not that's,
Emma: User-generated content by customers of the business, employees that are, you know, customers, you know, actors, if you will, because it's not always, you know, there's all sorts of ideas that get creative when, you know, not all businesses can get their customers to create content for them. That's, you know… the holy grail, if you have that. But, you know, either what we'll call actors, oftentimes employees, founder videos are huge. I think probably every single one of my clients have, been asked for a founder video, if they're at least open to getting in front of the camera.
Emma: Because again, it's… it's… people want to buy from people, they want to connect with people. I think post-pandemic, this has been, you know, probably just… true in general, but especially, with advertising. You know, advertising's been so big over the last decade, if you will, and, people are so used to tuning out ads and scrolling right by it that you have to stand out, and a lot of ways, that's… which is kind of ironic and hilarious, but is to be organic and, feeling and, you know, making it seem like it's not a paid ad, and making it seem like it's organic, so…
Emma: organic feeling content is, really doing well, and then I'd say, you know, depending on you know, where in the funnel and what type of ads, but product ads for e-commerce businesses. So, dynamic product ads are huge on Meta, that products dynamically populate into the ad based on the customer, and then Google Shopping, you know, still kind of product images. So I'd say, anything organic, user-generated, and then…
Emma: Product-focused, is… and product feed-based. And same thing, testing is always gonna be, you know, just, continuing to test and iterate and change out, content.
Dani: Absolutely, and… Social proof, which is that user-generated content, and the reviews, and the testimonials, and all of that.
Dani: cannot be understated, how important that is. I did a whole episode on it, I'll drop it in the thing. But it really is so important, especially in a world where we don't really know what's real anymore, and it's so easy to be targeted something and be told you need it, and so being able to have that sort of connection with the company, but also feel like it's a bit of a… like, I don't want to necessarily call it tribalism, but feeling safe because other people have already done it, and being able to see the proof of that is just so important. And if you're going to get it in front of as many people as possible, where they've never heard of you before.
Dani: Get that trust component of that know, like, and trust.
Emma: Yep. Early on is…
Dani: is priceless, so…
Emma: Yeah, social proof, just like you said, and especially with social media being such a huge part of people's daily lives, is that proof that… of concept that other people bought this, I'm not gonna get, you know, like I said, trust, and I'm not gonna get, you know, scammed, and it's, you know, it's legit, all those things, spot on.
Dani: Absolutely. And I know, you know, you mentioned… we started this off by talking about how ads look very different now than they did before, so I'm curious if you have any insights, because I know, for example, like, lookalike audiences are no longer a thing. And so, what are some of the other, like, secret tidbits happening under the hood of… that might be happening under the hood of people's set-it-and-forget-it ads on Meta, or on Google, or wherever, that they should be aware of.
Dani: that are… that's changing. Maybe it's, like, a functionality component, or even just, like, a trend.
Emma: Yeah, I would say, you know, you nailed one of them. The audience targeting on Meta has been 180 over the last few years. Interest-based targeting was huge before, those are a thing in the past. Meta's, you know, kind of slowly burying them, probably, you know, in time, getting rid of them entirely. Lookalike audiences, you know, very similarly, it's broad targeting, and back to the creative conversation, that's why, is… basically meta's machine learning, and similarly on Google, it's just done so differently that I'm gonna kind of stick with this train of thought on Meta, is that, basically, Meta knows better who your audience is than you do, based off all the data that it has on its customers, which, you know, is creepy.
Dani: All about the algorithm.
Emma: Yeah, but it's effective, and when people hear that, they're like, ew, you know, it's a gross feeling, it is, but it's 2025, and, you know, data privacy's another podcast. But still, even with privacy and transparency that, you know, Apple's implemented in policies around that, they still have… still have more data based on, you know, how you're interacting on their apps and, you know, outside of it still. So, basically, you know, now the new strategy that works very well, and is a big shift, to your point... is, having different ad types, different messaging, different value propositions that, in a broad audience, that then the ads speak to who your customer, you know, may or may, you know, is, and who the different people are, and then, the ads find the people in your audience, rather than you telling, you know, this is my audience, here's the ads I want to serve them. It's like, here's different ads, different ways of presenting who our brand is, and then those ads find the customers. So it's kind of a reverse engineer of what it used to be, and it's, again, just makes creative that much more important, and your messaging that much more important, and testing that much more important, and a lot of clients we work with, you know, in the beginning, we'll talk, like, a little bit about their target demographic, so we can understand, like, who they think it is, or who they want it to be. But again, a lot of it's, you know, that these platforms are really good at finding customers that you may not have otherwise gained because of this, you know, broad targeting approach.
Emma: And then on, you know, search, a big thing that's been, performance max campaigns have kind of been the big trend on Google, and it's been a pretty big black box as far as, like, what's happening with those, and it's a similar idea where they're using, you know, data and machine learning and kind of lumping it into this performance campaign type, and, but actually, it's, it's kind of an interesting shift on Google's end that they're actually revealing more data around performance max campaigns here in literally, like, recent weeks and months in allowing advertisers to see more of that, kind of pulling back the veil, if you will.
Emma: So there's, you know, I'd say that in and of itself, just the changes. Meta, you know, is… there's still constant changes on these platforms, but, I'd say that's probably even a bigger one for anyone that's maybe just set it and forget it on a search campaign.
Dani: Yes.
Emma: especially Performance Max is, you know, it's… the goal is… is to, basically to… to… have ads run on all of Google's, you know, same kind of thing as Meta, all of Google's kind of inventory of ad placements, and kind of give it a bunch of combination of things, and just, like, alright, take all this and do what you will. But again, it was… it was a black box, but they're now kind of allowing more transparency around what's going into that, and, you know, across the industry, you're seeing advertisers that are kind of peeking under the hood of performance max campaigns and seeing things that, like, this actually, you know, isn't. It's all going to, like, these cheap...
Emma: you know, these cheap placements that, maybe just don't do as well. So, again, all, I'm getting probably a little too nerdy on this, but, all pieces that, you know, these, these platforms do change and evolve, and unless you're actively... you know, invested in an expert, they can waste your money, you know, pretty quickly. Or, you know, leverage it and take advantage of it and make money. So, yeah, there's… trends I think we're seeing, you know, even as of recent weeks with search.
Dani: I mean, absolutely, and I think you really nailed it on the head there at the end, which is… there's a lot of stuff that's moving all the time, and if you have your stuff on set it and forget it, and it's just kind of like, I do $5 a day, or whatever it is that you're doing, I think that this is…
Dani: there are… there's especially one place where, when I'm working with clients, I'm like, if you're gonna do it. Have someone who knows what they're doing do it, and paid ads are… are that. I think that it can be extremely technical, it can… it's, like, kind of like professional gambling in a way, but you have to be able to do it in an informed way. You don't just show up to a blackjack table and not understand the rules, and just keep putting 20 down and hoping that, you know, you hit 25, but that's not actually what blackjack is, right? You're trying to hit 25, but it's 21, so you keep losing. And so, knowing and having someone that you trust with your investment. It's… kind of like having a stockbroker, honestly, help you go and make these decisions for you, so that you, as a really busy business owner who has way too many hats on already, like, you can't afford to waste that money. And so…
Dani: this was not meant to be a statement about a plug of working with Emma, but definitely work with Emma. But this is… I mean, it's the truth, and I think that there's so much that moves and happens, and the algorithm is constantly shifting.
Dani: that to just trust somebody to keep on top of it for you is so invaluable. And so, Emma, tell me a little bit more about how people can get in touch with you and learn more about working with, if they don't already, with a professional manager of paid ads and paid advertising and digital strategy.
Emma: No, I appreciate that, and I just do want to say, you know, everything, like you said, outside of being a paid, you know, an agency that, of course, is going to be biased to having someone, you know, run your ads for you, but even as an agency, you know, I've been in these platforms for, again, you know, coming on a decade, 8 years, since they've evolved and been what they are. And even as an advertiser that spends most of my day in there, there's times each account changes. Different accounts will have access to different things. So I'll get in, and I'm like, what happened? Like, what is this? You know, there's not this, like, big announcement to anyone that advertises, like, we moved this, we changed this. It's actually quite the opposite. There's so little, you know, updates from these… they… they'll… they'll provide their side of it, it's all PR, you know, and they'll, so I just can't agree more, even as an advertiser, how frustrating it is of, you know, these changes. It's, you know, usually sometimes for the best.
Emma: But it's hard to keep up with, even doing it for a living, let alone, like you said, trying to run your business and be the expert, you know, on what you're offering. So…
Emma: As far as, you know, getting ahold of us, you know, we are active on Instagram, post a lot of, like, small business tips, you know, paid ads, but also just in general, because we just greatly care about small businesses. Like you said, we are really passionate about women, mom-owned businesses as a woman and mom-owned business owner. And then we do, as I already mentioned earlier, our free offer is a strategy call to, you know, either do an If we absolutely… that's actually our favorite. If there's any paid ads that are being run, like, we'll audit it, and we'll be very transparent, and either say, like, here's opportunities for growth, or like, you know what? You got this pretty dialed in. Like, we typically will find something, just because, you know, it's what we do. But if it genuinely couldn't… maybe they're doing pretty, pretty dang well on their own, we'll tell them that, and be like, you know, we're here if you want to take it kind of to that next level.
Emma: Oftentimes, you know, or even if they're working with another agency, that maybe, you know, there's… that's usually what it is, is, clients that are working with an agency that, you know. There's a lot of agencies out there. We look at ourselves as performance marketers that, you know, like I said, we're going to talk your margins and actually making you money versus, you know, here's a bunch of people we can reach, which is some agency's approach of, like, you're reaching millions of people. It's like, cool, how many people of those people are converting?
Emma: So yeah, we'll set up a strategy call, audit your existing ads if there are any, give you feedback on, you know, what's working, what's not, and get kind of data behind it. Or if you haven't done paid ads, then, you know, talk through of, like, Here's… here's what we can do from, you know, what we learn about your business. Walk you through what it could look like, obviously talk about pricing, working with an agency.
Emma: And yeah, so you can either go to our website, schedule that free strategy call. I also just love, you know, anyone just following along on Instagram. Again, we want to help small businesses, whether or not it's, you know, resources like this of just information, or, of course, you know, an active management perspective. We have various packages, we have some that kind of just set up campaigns for clients, kind of done for you, so teach them enough to, you know, if the budget's not there for an agency, to set it up and teach them enough to be dangerous, is what I like to say. Or, you know, of course, active management, and then ranges of what that can look like, you know, starting out versus kind of that scale stage. So, yeah.
Dani: Amazing. Well, Emma, thank you. I will make sure that all of your contact information is put in the show notes, and then if you want to hear more from Emma, I know Emma and I had a great conversation on her podcast, all about marketers, marketing, marketing, and how it is quite the experience, so I'll make sure to add that to the show notes, too, if you want to check that out. But Emma is incredible, an incredible human, incredible… marketer, and I am so grateful to have her in my network, and so please…
Dani: Feel free to DM me, DM her if you have any questions about marketing, if you have a topic you want to cover in a future episode, let me know, let's make it happen. That's what I'm here for. So I will also be getting that recipe from Emma, so DM us if you want to get the recipe for her spinach dip, which I feel like I need now.
Dani: But I'm so glad you joined us here today at the table, and I'm gonna save you a seat, so make sure you tune in next time.
Emma: Thank you so much for having me, Dani. I really enjoyed it.
Want more strategic guidance and frameworks like this?
Join the list for behind-the-scenes insights, updates, and special episodes right in your inbox.
